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Optometry College Applicants 2009 and Beyond

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Paul Farkas

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Dec 28, 2000
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www.odwire.org
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Columbia University / PCO
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Qualified undergraduates will have two or possibly three additional optometry colleges from which to choose. An article that describes optometry as a career choice can be found at...
http://www.odwire.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3558.

There is a great deal of discussion among ODs whether the new optometry colleges are needed. A recent poll on the optometric web site ODwire.org indicated 93% of practicing optometrist felt the present colleges of optometry could meet present and future needs for the profession. Many offered the opinion that there was currently an excess of graduates who cannot be absorbed into private practice.

The new optometry colleges, Western University in California, University of the Incarnate Word in Texas and a proposed institution in Arizona will not be accredited when they accept the entering class. This is the place to get up to date information from optometrists who are in practice and can offer opinions.
 
Optometry: Poor career future

I feel there is already an OVERSUPPLY of practicing optometrists and studies have shown that this problem will get worse in the future.

Although I enjoy my career as an optometrist, I’ve stopped recommending it as a profession to interested students and even my own children. There are many factors making it a questionable choice for today’s students and oversupply is just one of them. The current generation of eye doctors has new technology that allows them to see more patients and this will be more than adequate to cover any future demand.

Over the years, I’ve mentored many new optometrists & helped them in their search for meaningful work. There currently aren’t enough good positions available for these recent grads, leaving them to settle for part-time or poor working conditions.

I feel strongly that any institution that adds to this already urgent problem does a great disservice to its graduates and the optometric profession.
 
If I am just thinking aloud...I don't like the idea of 4 new schools (I think 4 is correct...1 in TX, 1 in AZ, another in CA and the newest rumblings about possibly having 1 in CO). That's a lot of new competition, even given the baby boomers hitting presbyopia.

Its not that I'm "scared" of competition, I just don't see how we as a profession need another say 150 new O.D.'s per year over and above what we already have...
 
Paul Farkas said:
The new optometry colleges, Western University in California, University of the Incarnate Word in Texas and a proposed institution in Arizona will not be accredited when they accept the entering class.
Click to expand...

Are these educational institutions informing the prospective students of this fact that they are not accredited, and there is a risk of their not achieving it that the students are bearing?

They clearly are either ignorant as to basic ecomonic theory or else do not care that their graduates will have very limited job prospects and income potential even when the schools are credentialed though.
 
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False Advertising

The real problem behind this is the false information the AOA supplies about income for ODs. The AOA claims the average is $149,000. The Bureau of Labor Statistics and US News and World Report claim it is $99,000, or about 2/3 of the AOA's figures. The false info put out by the AOA stimulates more interest on the part of students in optometry as a career. Little do they know that the AOA info is false, or why the AOA is promoting it anyway.
 
Practicing ODs should be THE information source for those interested in optometry

Potential optometry students and their concerned parents use search engines to receive information about optometry as a rewarding career. If they search Optometry Career, the information sources that come up are the Association of Schools and Colleges of Optometry (ASCO) who have an interest in attracting the greatest number and best students for their member schools and the American Optometric Association (AOA)interested in a large influential organization that requires members. Each will describe optometry from their point of view painting a very positive picture.

As a practicing optometrist, you are in a far better position to answer questions one on on one. In many instances these students don't even know what they they don't know. As a result they may not be asking the correct questions.

Your knowledge can guide them towards accurate needed information. You should review where optometry was...where it is today...where it will be in the future from your perspective as a clinical practitioner, not an educator. The potential optometry student and parent may receive a very different picture from your description then from other sources found through search engines.

The students should understand what it means to graduate with a multi-six figure debt and possible low income potential if there is an optometric graduate glut. Should they consider attending a new optometry college not yet accredited? Selecting a brand new institution with unproven faculty and curriculum is an added risk that should be discussed.

Consider volunteering your time and sharing your experience with those interested in optometry as a career. You might make a difference in their decision after they understand the challenges.
 
An Anonymous Poster reports...

"This may not be a big deal to some of you, but I have received word that HEB grocery gave Incarnate Word a large sum of money for their optometry school.

Sorry I can't reveal my source or my name, but this is definitely true."
 
Ask Texans but...

marlowbeach said:
Paul:

I'm confused, why would HEB donate $? Are we talking about the possibility of ODs at pure grocery store (although you could consider some WM to be grocers).

PS: If you are reading this as a lurker, step up, join POP an help the effort to organize protests to these new schools.
Click to expand...

Their Web site appears to feature Pharmacy. Optometry is not such a big leap especially if they believe the big lie probated by vested interests that the optical industry is profitable.
 
Paul Farkas said:
Their Web site appears to feature Pharmacy. Optometry is not such a big leap especially if they believe the big lie probated by vested interests that the optical industry is profitable.
Click to expand...

I know that we've been having this conversation at POP, but how inept is the AOA..not only do they refuse to recognize oversupply issue (now or future) but they raise no objections to grocery stores financially supporting the development of new schools.
 
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I just joined POP this week.

I'm not a private practitioner (yet). I want to support this site. It's good entertainment and Paul fights the good fight.

I have tremendous respect for you private practice docs. I continue to pay my AOA dues because they seem to be the only voice for optometry. It's hard to beleive the craziness of more schools opening. I optimistically and probably a little naively hope that the powers that be are working to stop these new schools.

Don't know what else to do.
 
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Welcome to POP Aaron

Aaron Larson said:
I just joined POP this week.

I'm not a private practitioner (yet). I want to support this site. It's good entertainment and Paul fights the good fight.

I have tremendous respect for you private practice docs. I continue to pay my AOA dues because they seem to be the only voice for optometry. It's hard to beleive the craziness of more schools opening. I optimistically and probably a little naively hope that the powers that be are working to stop these new schools.

Don't know what else to do.
Click to expand...

Visiting the POP Private Forums you notice there are far fewer posts on various topics but chock full of useful information. The posts mean business and are complemented by expert consultant advice where indicated. POP member posts are in the spirit of cooperation with no personal bashing that is an unfortunate by product of our large free wheeling non-censored ODwire.org membership.

Visit the POP Optometric Politics forum and you will see that there is an initiative underway. When the strategy is complete it will be shared with our larger ODwire.org membership.

News flash... You and every other practicing OD are "the powers that be!"

For more on this read the article "OD Power...if we learn to use it" http://www.odwire.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3674
 
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Ian Raden said:
I have looked into this and it is an unfounded rumor. At one point there was someone from HEB sitting on the board for UIW, but this really should not be a surprise given their local prominence here.

We should really step a bit above spreading unfounded rumors for the sake of making our point.
Click to expand...

HEB actually entered the Optometry market in one or two of its San Antonio stores a year or so ago. I think it failed miserably.

Anyway, the conspiracy theory continues.
 
The solution to the question...

Ian Raden said:
I have looked into this and it is an unfounded rumor. At one point there was someone from HEB sitting on the board for UIW, but this really should not be a surprise given their local prominence here.

We should really step a bit above spreading unfounded rumors for the sake of making our point.
Click to expand...

Let UIW issue a statement saying that there is no HEB corporate funding or contributions from any other source with commercial interests and it will put the matter to rest. I regret the anonymous source and let's prove that it truly is an unfounded rumor.
 
I'm not one for rumors either, but I think we would be kidding ourselves not to think that commercial/retail interests are not attempting to support increasing the supply of ODs.
 
Then it's an easy step for the provost...

Ian Raden said:
I attended the "community leader" portion of the interviews for all of the Dean applicants for the College. The Provost was asked this question directly and in front of a room full of people said it was untrue.
Click to expand...

Put it in writing on UIW letterhead. With a University name such as their's, I would accept his word in writing and then place it on ODwire.org.

That should put a stop these vicious rumors.
 
Point of information...

marlowbeach said:
Interresting side question:

If one of these retail (and grocery) corporations are indeed donating financial support to the production of new schools (which from a business standpoint makes sense for them), I wonder if we would see more people becoming active in the protest of these new schools?

I agree with Keith in that it is the same small group on POP voicing their support. Perhaps we need some sort of controversy like to this to show that not only is oversupply a threat to the profession but corporations will benefit even more with the oversupply created by these new schools.
Click to expand...

This topic was intentionally placed on the ODwire.org public forum. This discussion is being picked up by search engines.

Potential optometry students have the opportunity to read OD comments regarding future careers for optometry college graduates who enter an already saturated market in 2009. So be honest and kind to one another. The world is watching.
 
Anonymous Poster responds...

"Ian,

I assure you this is not a rumor. Your sources are either lying to you or they don't know the truth. I assure you this is true and is coming from someone who would definitely know.

Once again, I apologize for not using my name or naming my source. There is no doubt that HEB gave them money for the Optometry program.

I would appreciate it if you would not accuse me of starting rumors as that is tantamount to calling me a liar."
 
Ian Raden said:
Starting rumors is not equivalent to lying. Saying something anonymously without naming a source is spreading rumors.

What I heard came directly from the mouth of the Provost of the University. True or not, I have an identified source.
Click to expand...

just curious, but why exactly were you at this "meeting"?
 
following the money

In regard to the speculation about funding for the new OD school at UIW, we all know that it will be built with "OPM" (other people's money).

I am aware of what the provost has said. Nevertheless, it can be very difficult to trace exactly where money really comes from, especially if donors want to be unknown. Consider that money may pass through various charitable organizations and foundations on the way to an intended purpose.

I think the fact of the matter is that the president of the university really wants the school to be built. He has found the money. I doubt that the money "found" him in order to ruin optometry. A subtle distinction.

Ultimately it largely falls on the shoulders of the new dean of the school to be the best school possible. Nobody wants a bad school, an embarrassment to the profession.
 
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Ian Raden said:
Because I live in San Antonio and I'm an O.D.

I was actually quite surprised to see only one other optometrist attending. Why wouldn't anyone want to see who the applicants were and hear what they had to say?

I actually find it a bit surprising that many local outspoken people on this board did not attend to ask the candidates questions about their concerns.
Click to expand...

Surprising that not many other ODs were there when they gave little notice and held the meeting in the afternoon when working people are seeing patients? UIW didn't want ODs to be there or they would have had the meetings at convenient times and given appropriate notice. I received less than 2 days notice, already had a full schedule as the meetings were at 3 o clock across town.

As little as the provost cared about all we had said for 2 years, why would he want our input now? Not canceling my patients those afternoons was more valuable to me than watching a show.

As for previous posts about well "the provost said it so it must be true", please! He has his agenda. It is no secret that UIW has corporate donors all the way around. They don't care where the money comes from, would never tell us where it came from, and are moving to their own drum beat about the dire need for more optometrists. Bottom line is they are in the business of educating students, not in the business of optometry.

Somehow he forgot to inform the Sisters that ODs weren't happy about the school opening when we first met with him 2 years ago. When we met with the Sisters this year, it was the first dissent they had heard at all, but unfortunately the ball was already too far down the track and the Provost tried to snuff out our every comment as he was at the meeting with the Sisters too. Didn't see you there Ian.

I also went to meet the new dean once he was selected. Not a real point to that show either but thought it might be interesting to see him dance to the tune of "we need more ODs so I am here to save the world and help UIW accomplish this very necessary task." They don't plan on having residencies right away, it will be almost impossible to catch up to UHCO in quality of clinics and facilities, but no one cares.

Let's just crank out some OD's and hope they scatter to the border towns of TX and save the state's crisis of no vision care for the uninsured population of South TX. Surely they'll all work for free after paying $200,000 for their degree. Or at least work for medicaid- wait maybe it will be Hillary care by then and we'll all be redeemed. Halleluyah!
 
Richard R. Rigsby said:
In regard to the speculation about funding for the new OD school at UIW, we all know that it will be built with "OPM" (other people's money).

I am aware of what the provost has said. Nevertheless, it can be very difficult to trace exactly where money really comes from, especially if donors want to be unknown. Consider that money may pass through various charitable organizations and foundations on the way to an intended purpose.

I think the fact of the matter is that the president of the university really wants the school to be built. He has found the money. I doubt that the money "found" him in order to ruin optometry. A subtle distinction.

Ultimately it largely falls on the shoulders of the new dean of the school to be the best school possible. Nobody wants a bad school, an embarrassment to the profession.
Click to expand...

I do agree with Dr. Rigsby that the main points to the Sisters now is that we all want a quality school. We'd prefer no new school but that is not an option so we don't want to see second rate grads being cranked out. We made that very clear to them at our meeting and tried to let them know what the OD community at large was feeling.

Anyway... as I've said before, that fight is over. Let's hope they do things right and maybe some of the other schools will see the applicant pool decrease and not just take anyone and actually drop enrollments????
I'm sure that's wishful thinking.
 
Monica Allison said:
I do agree with Dr. Rigsby that the main points to the Sisters now is that we all want a quality school. We'd prefer no new school but that is not an option so we don't want to see second rate grads being cranked out. We made that very clear to them at our meeting and tried to let them know what the OD community at large was feeling.

Anyway... as I've said before, that fight is over. Let's hope they do things right and maybe some of the other schools will see the applicant pool decrease and not just take anyone and actually drop enrollments????
I'm sure that's wishful thinking.
Click to expand...

There are two ways of looking at this...

Maybe the school WILL do such a bad job that after several years few people will enroll because of their poor reputation or high number of drop outs. Then the college will close for lack of interest.

Or as you say the applicant pool may be so diluted across our continent that it creates a drop in enrollments...

We can only hope...
 
catholic research? I kinda doubt it...

Monica Allison said:
I do agree with Dr. Rigsby that the main points to the Sisters now is that we all want a quality school. We'd prefer no new school but that is not an option so we don't want to see second rate grads being cranked out. We made that very clear to them at our meeting and tried to let them know what the OD community at large was feeling.

Anyway... as I've said before, that fight is over. Let's hope they do things right and maybe some of the other schools will see the applicant pool decrease and not just take anyone and actually drop enrollments????
I'm sure that's wishful thinking.
Click to expand...

I would like to know what the "sisters" would think of stem cell research or treatments (for cornea)....or growing new organs...isn't this kind of taboo for a catholic? and isn't this where medicine and optometry are going? Or is optometry just going into the chains by the next decade?
 
BOYD CLARK said:
I would like to know what the "sisters" would think of stem cell research or treatments (for cornea)....or growing new organs...isn't this kind of taboo for a catholic? and isn't this where medicine and optometry are going? Or is optometry just going into the chains by the next decade?
Click to expand...

Actually, the Catholic Church does not forbid stem cell research or other research per se, except for when it involves tissue that has been harvested from embryos or fetuses.

I actually don't believe optometry itself has much of a future itself in stem cell research. Are we going to be doing transplant surgery as optometrists?

At any rate, there are new developments on producing stem cell lines from stem cells other than those that come from embryos. So, there is a good chance it will be possible in the future to do research on stem cells that does not conflict with Catholic ethics.

Likewise, there is no conflict with Catholic ethics into growing tissue (e.g. corneas) either, provided that embryos and fetuses are not harvested. The Catholic Church is not anti-research.

The Catholic Church IS against both greed and lying though! Back to the real issues with UIW's new optometry school!
 
kristinlarson said:
Actually, the Catholic Church does not forbid stem cell research or other research per se, except for when it involves tissue that has been harvested from embryos or fetuses.

I actually don't believe optometry itself has much of a future itself in stem cell research. Are we going to be doing transplant surgery as optometrists?

At any rate, there are new developments on producing stem cell lines from stem cells other than those that come from embryos. So, there is a good chance it will be possible in the future to do research on stem cells that does not conflict with Catholic ethics.

Likewise, there is no conflict with Catholic ethics into growing tissue (e.g. corneas) either, provided that embryos and fetuses are not harvested. The Catholic Church is not anti-research.

The Catholic Church IS against both greed and lying though! Back to the real issues with UIW's new optometry school!
Click to expand...

The real issue is that no potential applicant should consider applying to a school without optometric accreditation. No accreditation means that no state board will allow a graduate from these schools to be licensed. There are 17 accredited optometry colleges to consider.

Why select any of the three new optometry colleges even as a back up?
 
Do applying students know how accreditation affects them?

It should be the duty of these new schools to accurately and fully explain this to potential students during the interview or application process.
 
ODs can help...

marlowbeach said:
Do applying students know how accreditation affects them?

It should be the duty of these new schools to accurately and fully explain this to potential students during the interview or application process.
Click to expand...

Every time a potential optometry college applicants discusses an interest in applying "Accredited Institution" should be included in the discussion.
 
Three Random thoughts

First, it is truly disturbing to be at the point where we, as optometrists, are looking at four new schools preparing to open and swell our ranks further.

Second, as with many things, the law of supply and demand will largely dictate the fate of optometric education. As long as the schools are successful in attracting candidates who can pay or arrange financing for tuition, these schools will exist and perhaps even increase further in number. I think many who apply have an incomplete knowledge of the reality of optometry, and the schools , since it is in their best interest to fill their classes, deliberately or negligently do not inform their applicants properly of the potential obstacles they will face and do not provide an accurate portrayal of the income potential they will realize upon graduation, as compared to the tuition and expenses they will pay to get that degree.

Third, I assume a state board will only grant a license to a graduate of an "optometrically accredited" school. An accredidating organization can withwhold their accredication for any number of reasons. For example, if they were to feel that a school would produce graduates who would flood an already flooded field...this would encourage unprofessional and/or substandard conduct just to "beat" the other guy. This would "harm" the public and be full, unequivocal and legal justification to withhold credidation from this new school.
Once a school was unaccredidated it would be open to legal assault by consumers and students of the school, alike. A resulting inundation of lawsuits could easily bankrupt all but the most powerful state universities, and certainly any smaller private group that was operating such a school, thereby closing the school out of necessity for survival of the parent organiztion.
 
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Four new schools? I thought it was only three.

Does anyone else wonder how someone can announce a new school in 2007 and have it up and running in 2009? What kind of graduates will they be turning out the first few years?
 
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