Gun Control: Where are Optometrists on National Issues?

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PALATKA, Fla. — An 8-year-old boy was fatally stabbed with a pair of scissors also used to stab a police officer, Putnam County authorities said.
Zachariah Williams, 20, attacked the officer as emergency medical personnel took the child to an ambulance, authorities said. The officer was stabbed in the cheek but able to use a Taser gun on Williams.
Williams was arrested and charged with murder and aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.
The boy, identified as 8-year-old DayQuone Hill, was pronounced dead at the hospital.
The cause of the attacks was not immediately known.
The attack happened at the College Arms apartment complex in Palatka on Tuesday night. Police said it is a "problematic address" for officers constantly responding to violent calls.

I went to high school with the officer who was stabbed. My understanding is that he is recovering well, but will obviously have some permanent marks.
 
Yes there is more...

You forgot to include the rampage in Germany, where 15(?) were killed.

Remember they have VERY, VERY, VERY strict gun control laws in Germany.

Was that why you forgot it Paul, or did you just not hear about it yet?

And don't forget, it is 100% illegal for a regular citizen to own an automatic assault rifle.

Sociopaths do not obey the laws!

I delayed mentioning the German violence until a complete report was available. We can also discuss if you wish the near civil war in Mexico with firearms supplied by US gun dealers.

I agree psychotics and sociopaths do not obey the laws. However, easy access to firearms makes mass murder by the nuts and malcontents far easier than with other less sophisticated weapons.

Here is the German story as reported in the 3/12/09 edition of the New York Times...

"Teenage Gunman Kills 15 at School in Germany

By CARTER DOUGHERTY

Published: March 11, 2009

WINNENDEN, Germany — A teenage gunman killed 15 people, most of them female, on Wednesday in a rampage that began at a school near Stuttgart in southern Germany and ended in a nearby town, where he then killed himself after the police wounded him.

The attack left Germany, which tightened tough gun controls after a similar attack at a school seven years ago, struggling to understand the carnage that had again befallen it, a country with relatively little violent crime. In 2002, a gunman killed 16 people before killing himself at a school in Erfurt, in eastern Germany.

“This is a day of mourning for all of Germany,” Chancellor Angela Merkel said in a brief statement in Berlin. “Our thoughts are with the friends and families.”

The authorities identified the attacker as Tim Kretschmer, 17, who graduated last year from the school he later attacked, the Albertville secondary school in Winnenden, a prosperous commuter town near Stuttgart, in the state of Baden-Württemberg.

State officials and the police, in news briefings throughout the day, described three hours of horror that began soon after the school day started.

They said the attacker, clad in black, opened fire in three classrooms at the school, killing nine students — eight girls and a boy — and three teachers, all women. Seven wounded students were hospitalized.

The officials said that several police officers arrived at the school two minutes after receiving an emergency call at 9:33 a.m. and that they could hear shots still being fired. The officers entered the school and caught a glimpse of the gunman, who fired one shot at them and ran. That is when he apparently encountered and killed two of the teachers, the officials said.

Mr. Kretschmer managed to leave the school and flee the grounds, shooting and killing an employee of a nearby psychiatric clinic, officials said.

Firefighters, paramedics and columns of heavily armed commandos swarmed the school and sealed off Winnenden’s small downtown area, where the attacker had been seen heading. Helicopters circled over the town of some 27,000 residents.

But the attacker slipped away, hijacking a car and forcing the driver to take him to Wendlingen, about 25 miles southeast of Stuttgart.

Inside a Volkswagen dealership there, the gunman killed an employee and a customer before police officers engaged him in a gunfight. The gunman was shot in the leg and two police officers were wounded. As the police closed in, Mr. Kretschmer shot himself in the head.

No motive had emerged by Wednesday night. “There were apparently no signs that he would be capable of something like this,” said Erwin Hetger, the state police chief.

People who knew Mr. Kretschmer described him as quiet or inconspicuous.

Adrian Homoke, 19, said the gunman seemed to be a normal enough student during his last year at Albertville, with friends and his own interests. “He liked to play poker during the breaks,” Mr. Homoke said. “I couldn’t say anything bad about him.”

Mr. Kretschmer’s father is a member of a local shooting club and owned 15 legally registered weapons, according to state officials. One of them, a pistol usually kept in a bedroom, was missing when the police searched the family home just after the shooting at the school, as were more than 100 rounds of ammunition, the police said.

Many in Germany wondered whether the attack could have had any link — in the mind of the attacker, at least — to the shooting rampage in Alabama on Tuesday that left 11 dead, including the gunman.

By nightfall, the scene around the school and in Winnenden was part media circus, part impromptu memorial.

A long concrete wall was adorned with candles, flowers and messages to the dead and their families. A Roman Catholic church held a service in the center of town that was packed with mourners, many sobbing.

Albert Biesinger, a Catholic deacon who works with the local police to counsel traumatized crime victims, said the authorities had quickly steered the surviving students and their families away from the grisly scene at the school.

“I tell them, ‘This is too much for you,’ ” the deacon said. “They couldn’t handle that right now.”

Victor Homola and Stefan Pauly contributed reporting from Berlin.
 
I am an Arkansan.

You come in my house uninvited, I shoot you.
You are robbing my neighbors house, I shoot you.
You are running after someone with a knife in one hand and your pecker in the other..I shoot you.

These are a few of my favorite things.LOL
 
We can also discuss if you wish the near civil war in Mexico with firearms supplied by US gun dealers.

Many of those are full automatic M-16's that are obtained illegally. US gun dealers may sell them through the US Government to the Mexican police or army but the weapons are then stolen or sold on black market. There is no way to keep a American citizen who passes the Instant check background check from smuggling something across the border but those aren't going to be a fully automatic M-16 or AK-47. At least until he gets caught and has a felony record, which then would show on the InstantCheck system and couldn't buy one. Maybe when the ACLU agrees to let doctors release mental records into a national database to check, then we could keep some with prior mental illness history from getting them. Many would still just get illegally though.

They've had civil war in Mexico off and on since the Revolution with plenty of firearms before now. It's a battle for control of the drug trade. It's not more weapons, it's more violence. Just like here. It's not more availability of firearms, they are restricted now than ever before. It's more violence.

So the question is why? Why are people more likely to shoot someone than ever before? The culture has changed and is sick. But no one wants to think that could be a problem and suggest banning violent tv/movies/video games/gangster rap songs. Lord forbid we tell anyone that. We don't believe in God anymore and have a higher authority to answer to or have a ultimate moral code. Anything goes. We demonstrate greed and materialism through our leaders, corporations and the shows we watch. Not many have the work ethic we once did as a country. We throw medicine at everything to cover up the source of the problem. Take a pill, that will help your depression that was caused by your lifestyle. Ban firearms, that will keep suicidal people from shooting others. :rolleyes:

I'm for checking the mental history status with the Instacheck system but the only solution ultimately to help prevent these tragedies is changing our culture. Maybe it's too late for that. If that's the case, we are all on our own and be prepared for the next Hitler to restore order. America has cancer and somebody better start chemo pretty quick.
 
I delayed mentioning the German violence until a complete report was available. We can also discuss if you wish the near civil war in Mexico with firearms supplied by US gun dealers.

I agree psychotics and sociopaths do not obey the laws. However, easy access to firearms makes mass murder by the nuts and malcontents far easier than with other less sophisticated weapons.

Here is the German story as reported in the 3/12/09 edition of the New York Times...

Doesn't Germany have some of the strictest gun control on the books? So, obviously, after the last 'school shooting' their response was to tighten their gun control statutes... and look how well that worked.

Repeat after me... Firearms are not the problem, firearms are not the problem, firearms are not the problem. People are the problem.

My fork doesn't make me fat

My Pencil doesn't misspell words

My gun doesn't kill anyone

My Car doesn't run into objects by itself, or speed by itself

Guns are a tool. They are an inanimate object. They are good at what they do.
 
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We can also discuss if you wish the near civil war in Mexico with firearms supplied by US gun dealers.

Many of those are full automatic M-16's that are obtained illegally. US gun dealers may sell them through the US Government to the Mexican police or army but the weapons are then stolen or sold on black market. There is no way to keep a American citizen who passes the Instant check background check from smuggling something across the border but those aren't going to be a fully automatic M-16 or AK-47. At least until he gets caught and has a felony record, which then would show on the InstantCheck system and couldn't buy one. Maybe when the ACLU agrees to let doctors release mental records into a national database to check, then we could keep some with prior mental illness history from getting them. Many would still just get illegally though.

They've had civil war in Mexico off and on since the Revolution with plenty of firearms before now. It's a battle for control of the drug trade. It's not more weapons, it's more violence. Just like here. It's not more availability of firearms, they are restricted now than ever before. It's more violence.

So the question is why? Why are people more likely to shoot someone than ever before? The culture has changed and is sick. But no one wants to think that could be a problem and suggest banning violent tv/movies/video games/gangster rap songs. Lord forbid we tell anyone that. We don't believe in God anymore and have a higher authority to answer to or have a ultimate moral code. Anything goes. We demonstrate greed and materialism through our leaders, corporations and the shows we watch. Not many have the work ethic we once did as a country. We throw medicine at everything to cover up the source of the problem. Take a pill, that will help your depression that was caused by your lifestyle. Ban firearms, that will keep suicidal people from shooting others. :rolleyes:

I'm for checking the mental history status with the Instacheck system but the only solution ultimately to help prevent these tragedies is changing our culture. Maybe it's too late for that. If that's the case, we are all on our own and be prepared for the next Hitler to restore order. America has cancer and somebody better start chemo pretty quick.


Well said Tory.

It really comes down to the loss of morality, loss in the belief in something more than oneself, loss of personal responsibility (in favor of relativism and doing what feels right to you at that time), and the loss of the family unit.
 
I delayed mentioning the German violence until a complete report was available. We can also discuss if you wish the near civil war in Mexico with firearms supplied by US gun dealers.

I agree psychotics and sociopaths do not obey the laws. However, easy access to firearms makes mass murder by the nuts and malcontents far easier than with other less sophisticated weapons.


I would be happy to discuss the drug war in Mexico, as well as the implicit failure of the US policy known as "the war on drugs". Drugs being the operative word. Take the money of the drug trade out and there is no war (well, there is always some war for some reason, power struggles being what they are for humanity). Also note the high number of decapitations; with the heads found in coolers. An exercise in psychological warfare, better outlaw machetes so the decapitations stop and all can feel better.

Easy access to firearms does not make mass murder easier than less sophisticated weapons.

How many American military personnel have lost their lives to IED's?

Pick up a copy of "the anarchist cookbook" or "the poor man's James bond". Everyone has EASY access to information and the necessary chemicals to create IED's. These very unsophisticated weapons, in an automobile, become a far better means to an end. But most would rather go down in a blaze of glory, gun fighting it out with law enforcement, just like their hero's in movies/video games etc.

Besides, legal access to firearms is not easy. I was practically strip searched the last time I purchased a firearm. It would have been a lot easier to find a black marketeer. Although, as an honest citizen, I don't know where to find one.

Why does it always come back to parenting?
 
Changing the method of mayhem in the USA?

Easy access to firearms does not make mass murder easier than less sophisticated weapons.

How many American military personnel have lost their lives to IED's?

Are you suggesting that we are moving into an era of lunatic suicide bombers in the USA rather than shooters?

So far the issue is easy access to firearms causing incredible loss of life in a very short time span by the deranged. Other means such as knives or scissors cannot compare.
 
Are you suggesting that we are moving into an era of lunatic suicide bombers in the USA rather than shooters?

So far the issue is easy access to firearms causing incredible loss of life in a very short time span by the deranged. Other means such as knives or scissors cannot compare.

Wrong.

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Easy Access?

Paul,

Honestly, have you yourself recently tried to purchase a handgun?
 
Are you suggesting that we are moving into an era of lunatic suicide bombers in the USA rather than shooters?

So far the issue is easy access to firearms causing incredible loss of life in a very short time span by the deranged. Other means such as knives or scissors cannot compare.

Yes, I am suggesting that lunatics will use whatever is at their disposal. Perhaps explosives, as Oklahoma City will attest too. Perhaps crashing a large automobile into a crowd of people or using firearms obtained outside legal commerce channels. Poisoning a water supply, contaminating food sources, the list of ways to kill one's fellow man are endless.

The issue of easy access to weapons of mass destruction will always exist. A black market will always exist, be it drugs, firearms, explosives etc. A government can deny it's law abiding citizens access to these items, but they will always be available to those outside the law.

I would prefer to have a part in defending myself, family and country in times of crisis, rather than give up that right and place my life, liberty and pursuit of happiness solely in the hands of others, incapable of being in all places at all times.
 
Never again

Germany had gun control
 

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Germany had gun control
Think about it............if just one in ten or even 100 of the Jewish people were armed and took it upon themselves to take out a couple Nazi soldiers, Hitler would not have been able to pull off the mass killings or the war for that matter.
I agree, never again. Try and pull a genocide in a country of free, armed individuals. It's not going to happen.
 
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Packing heat in national parks...

To calm frayed nerves over the Board Certification debate here is an editorial in the newspaper fire arm enthusiasts love to hate...;)

"‘Astoundingly Flawed’

Published: April 2, 2009

In December, ignoring proper procedure and the risk to public safety, the Bush administration rushed through regulations allowing people to carry concealed, loaded guns in national parks and wildlife refuges. Fortunately, a federal judge has blocked this last-minute mischief, giving the Obama administration a fresh chance to do the right thing and withdraw the rule.

Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly of the United States District Court in Washington, said the Interior Department failed to conduct the legally required environmental assessment, taking into account such factors as public safety and the likely impact on the “human environment.” Over all, she said, the process by which the rule was adopted was “astoundingly flawed.”

Rather than appeal, President Obama’s interior secretary, Ken Salazar, should agree to retract the rule — even though that would anger the gun lobby.

The judge rested her decision on procedural breaches, but allowing park visitors to pack heat would be a terrible idea even if proper procedures were followed.

The rule authorizing concealed weapons, which took effect in January, lifted Reagan-era gun restrictions that do not trespass on the Second Amendment. With limited exceptions, they permit visitors to transport guns in national parks and wildlife refuges, provided they are unloaded and properly stored or dismantled.

The Bush Interior Department claimed it was changing the rules to “give greater effect to principles of Federalism” because some states allow residents to walk around secretly armed. But respect for state authority does not require applying those laws to federal lands, including those in states that ban loaded, concealed guns in their own parks.

States routinely grant concealed carry licenses without proper background checks or training. Indeed, among the evidence Bush officials ignored in their haste to relax national park gun limits was the long list of violent crimes committed by dangerous people with state concealed carry licenses. Contrary to gun lobby claims, the evidence suggests that permitting concealed weapons drives up crime rather than decreasing it.

Before becoming president, Mr. Obama spoke of the dangers of concealed weapons. Yet a few weeks ago, his Justice Department filed a brief in the parks case supporting the Bush line that the change would have no significant impacts on public health and safety.

The injunction carries a message that the government is unlikely to succeed on the merits. Mr. Salazar has initiated an internal 90-day review of the new gun policy but says he is still undecided about whether to continue to defend the Bush rule. A serious steward of the nation’s parks would not."
 
Since it is legal for me to "transport" my firearm in a National Park, I'll be OK Paul.

First, I use my bear spray to confuse, blind and disorient my attacker (man or beast). Then, I acquire my legal firearm from its case and load it with it's separated source of ammunition. If the attack persists at this point, I use deadly force.

This formula can also be applied if you live in the "Peoples Republik of Illinois or Wisconsin," where personal freedom and liberty is infringed upon.

I only hope my attackers aren't armed with firearms (of course they won't be, that would be illegal:rolleyes:) because then they might shoot me from beyond the effective range of my less than lethal device and rape and murder my family as I lay dieing. But if it makes us all safer, yehaa!;)
 
Field and Stream published an article several years ago called "would you rather pay a fine or be dead?" or something along these lines. The picture was of a grizzly pushing it's way into a tent and the guy holding a revolver at point blank range. Grizzly attacks in Yellowstone are not unheard of and I for one would not be on a horse or backpacking or camping in griz country without a sizeable sidearm. Legal or not.
I would love to have some liberal judge sit down with any bear attack victim and discuss the merits of gun control in an untamed, wild area of wilderness where humans are not at the top of the food chain. This is all insane to me.
 
Field and Stream published an article several years ago called "would you rather pay a fine or be dead?" or something along these lines. The picture was of a grizzly pushing it's way into a tent and the guy holding a revolver at point blank range. Grizzly attacks in Yellowstone are not unheard of and I for one would not be on a horse or backpacking or camping in griz country without a sizeable sidearm. Legal or not.
I would love to have some liberal judge sit down with any bear attack victim and discuss the merits of gun control in an untamed, wild area of wilderness where humans are not at the top of the food chain. This is all insane to me.

Having spent a good deal of time in Grizzly country, a sidearm is not the best choice. A 12 gauge with slugs or a high power rifle are certainly better. With bears, being smart and avoidance really work best, IMO.
I have been bluff charged though, and if I had not been armed, I would have needed new undies.

Bears encounters make for great copy and sell, but I don't think bears are nearly as fearsome as portrayed. Including those I have spent time with on Alaskan salmon rivers. I have more concern with Mountain Lions. They are so damn quiet and they only want you for a meal. Although, once calling coyotes, I called in a bear. He was coming for a meal, so it was different and I created the situation and have thus far lived with the consequences of my actions.

Honestly, I have more concern of human predators in National Parks than the fauna. Creating a pool of defenseless victims should be a magnet for criminals.
 
Guns don't kill people etc... really? Now this!... again

As reported in the 4/4/09 edition of the New York Times...

"13 Shot Dead During a Class on Citizenship

By ROBERT D. McFADDEN
Published: April 3, 2009
A gunman invaded an immigration services center in downtown Binghamton, N.Y., during citizenship classes on Friday and shot 13 people to death and critically wounded 4 others before killing himself in a paroxysm of violence that turned a quiet civic setting into scenes of carnage and chaos.

The killing began around 10:30 a.m. and was over in minutes, witnesses said, but the ordeal lasted up to three hours for those trapped inside the American Civic Association as heavily armed police officers, sheriff’s deputies and state troopers threw up a cordon of firepower outside and waited in a silence of uncertainty.

Finally, officers who had not fired a shot closed in and found a sprawl of bodies in a classroom, 37 terrified survivors cowering in closets and a boiler room and, in an office, the dead gunman, identified as Jiverly Wong, 42, a Vietnamese immigrant who lived in nearby Johnson City.

Two pistols and a satchel of ammunition were found with the body. In what the police took to be evidence of preparation and premeditation, the assailant had driven a borrowed car up against the center’s back door to barricade it against escape, then had walked in the rain around to the front to begin the attack.

What motivated the assault remained a mystery. Binghamton officials said the assailant apparently had ties to the center, which helps immigrants and refugees with counseling, resettlement and other issues.

It was the nation’s worst mass shooting since April 16, 2007, when Seung-Hui Cho, 23, shot and killed 32 people in a dormitory and classroom at Virginia Tech University in Blacksburg, Va., then killed himself in the largest shooting in modern American history. In the last month, 25 people, including 2 gunmen, were slain in three mass shootings, in North Carolina, California and Alabama.

As city, state and federal officials from numerous agencies began what was likely to be a lengthy investigation, expressions of condolence for the victims and their families were offered by Gov. David A. Paterson and other officials who went to Binghamton; by Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr., in New York to address a civil rights group; and by President Obama, in Europe for NATO talks.

The vice president said Americans must find a way to prevent the kind of bloodshed that erupted in Binghamton. “We’ve got to figure out a way to deal with this terrible, terrible violence,” Mr. Biden told a meeting in New York.

Binghamton, a city of about 43,000 at the confluence of the Susquehanna and Chenango Rivers in the Southern Tier, some 175 miles northwest of New York City, is the home of Binghamton University, part of the State University of New York. It is a working-class town whose population is more than 80 percent white and about 10 percent black, with small percentages of Asians and Latinos.

The American Civic Association, a small nonprofit resettlement agency financed largely by the United Way, has resettled 53 refugees through its Binghamton center since 2004, most of them Vietnamese who studied English as a second language there. It operated quietly for years, its officials said, and seemed an improbable venue for a murderous attack.

Little was known about the assailant Friday night. Cautious officials declined to name the gunman, but there appeared to be little doubt about his identity. The name Jiverly Wong was provided by a law enforcement official who declined to be named because he was not authorized to release information.

But the official said Mr. Wong had a New York State pistol license that listed two handguns, apparently the weapons he used at the immigration services center: a .45-caliber Beretta and a 9-millimeter Beretta. The authorities matched the serial numbers of the two weapons found with the gunman’s body to the serial numbers on the pistol license. Officials said they were trying to trace the histories of the guns. Other public records indicated that Mr. Wong had also lived in California in recent years.

At Mr. Wong’s home in Johnson City on Friday night, the police were seen removing a rifle case, a box with a picture of a rifle on the side, and two black boxes that may have been handgun cases.

Maurice Hinchey, who represents the area in Congress, said he was told by law enforcement officials that the gunman drove to the center in a car registered to his father and barricaded the center’s back door with it. “He made sure nobody could escape,” Police Chief Joseph Zikuski said at a late-afternoon news conference.

It was unclear what connection the gunman previously had with the immigration services center, but there appeared to be no doubt that he was acting alone, Chief Zikuski said.

Armed with the two handguns and wearing a green jacket, the executioner came out of the rain through the glass front doors of the center, entering a reception area where he encountered two secretaries. He said nothing, but shot both. One slumped dead, but the other, Shirley DeLucca, pretended to be dead, and as the gunman walked on, she crawled to a desk and called 911.

Beyond the entryway, about 50 people — Russians, Kurds, Chinese, Arabs, Laotians and others — were arrayed in several classrooms at their desks in language and citizenship classes. The gunman entered the first room, a citizenship class, and resumed firing. As victims wounded and dying crumpled to the floor, students in nearby classrooms heard the shots.

Thanh Huynh, who translated the account of a young Vietnamese woman, said the group fell silent. The teacher called 911, then hurried out with the others, running for the back stairs to the basement. “They heard the continued shooting, very fast,” the translator said, “like 10 bullets, 10 shots together. They tried to hide in the basement anywhere they can, under chair, closet, storage room. Then, after they heard, so quiet.”

Zhanar Tokhtabayeva, 30, from Kazakhstan, told The Associated Press that she was in an English class when she heard the shots. Her teacher screamed for everyone to go into a storage room. “I heard the shots, every shot,” she said. “I heard no screams, just silence, shooting. I heard shooting, very long time. And I was thinking, when will this stop? I was thinking that my life was finished.”

At least 26 people took refuge in a boiler room, the police chief said. The first officers were on the scene within two minutes of the first 911 call, he said. In all, he said, 37 survivors were found.

Meanwhile, swarms of Binghamton police officers and Broome County sheriff’s deputies with rifles and shotguns converged on the scene a block off Main Street, just west of the Chenango River, and took cover behind a tangle of vehicles and the corners of nearby buildings.

Streets were cleared for blocks around. Apartments and homes nearby were evacuated, along with shops and other business establishments in the area. Nearby, Binghamton High School went into lockdown. The ensuing hours were tense, with no further shots fired inside and no information on how many were dead, wounded and trapped.

About 1:30 p.m., police SWAT teams moved into the building methodically, encountering the gunman with his weapons and ammunition satchel. It was unclear in what part of the body he had shot himself. Most of the dead were found sprawled in a classroom — their names were not released — and survivors were found scattered about in closets, storage rooms and the boiler room. Many were too terrified to come out of hiding, the police said.

In addition, the police were unaware at the time that there was only one assailant. On the possibility that others were involved, some of the male survivors were handcuffed when they were brought out. Chief Zikuski later apologized for this.

Four wounded survivors were taken to area hospitals. Two women and a man suffering gunshot wounds were being treated at Wilson Medical Center in Johnson City, and a man was being treated at Our Lady of Lourdes Memorial Hospital in Binghamton. The police and other officials called their conditions critical, but hospital representatives gave various reports of conditions.

On Friday night, the scene of the shooting and much of the block around it remained cordoned off with yellow crime-scene tape. Crowds that had milled around throughout the day had dwindled to a group of onlookers who mingled with television news crews, lingering in the ordinarily quiet neighborhood, a mix of homes and small businesses.

Just a few doors down is the First Congregational Church of Binghamton, a local landmark. The pastor, the Rev. Arthur Suggs, said the shooting that had transformed the city was only part of a larger pattern in the nation. “It’s like our number came up,” he said.

Omri Yigal, 53, said in a telephone interview late Friday night that his wife, Doris Yigal, also 53, was taking an English class at the center at the time of the shooting and remained “unaccounted for.” The police told him she was not among the survivors they had interviewed, Mr. Yigal said, adding that he could not find her at the local hospitals.

Ms. Yigal, a homemaker originally from the Philippines, came to the United States about a year ago. She was taking English classes to help her compete in the job market.

“She has always dreamed of coming to the United States,” Mr. Yigal said. “But certainly she had no idea of the kind of dangers that were present in our society.”

She has two sisters, he said, both of whom called wanting to know how she was. “They’re very distraught,” he said.

Mr. Yigal said he planned to stay up through the night, calling hospitals and hoping. “Right now, I’m looking at our wedding pictures,” he said."

Reporting was contributed by Ray Rivera in Binghamton, N.Y., Nate Schweber in Johnson City, N.Y., Al Baker, Jack Begg, Nina Bernstein and Anahad O’Connor in New York City, and Francesca Segrè in Inglewood, Calif.
 
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And again, psychotics kill people!!!!

Stop blaming the inanimate object. It does not come to life and compel people to evil. If you need to point a finger, point it in the correct direction. Shall I flood this thread with news reports of firearms saving lives. What good would it do, your eyes are shut.


Hold people accountable for their actions.

Why do we continue to punish the majority for the actions of the minority?

Paul, you have easy access to firearms, but have not gone on a wild murder spree. WHY?
 
Guns save lives

"The Dallas Morning News reported late last month that a resident in the far north area of the city fatally shot two men after they forced their way into his home and attacked him. For this quick-thinking citizen, the personal firearm he kept in his home likely saved his life and the lives of his family. Perhaps those who persist in assailing the constitutional rights of American gun owners should reevaluate their position.



The 29-year-old victim of the home intrusion, who was unnamed in the article, was home with his wife and three children on Jan. 23. At 9 a.m., two men appeared at a side door and asked for someone the man did not know. Before he knew it, the two forcefully entered the home and shot him in the arm. After retrieving a firearm from his bedroom, police said the resident shot and killed the two intruders in an ensuing gun battle.



When lobbying for further restrictions on Second Amendment rights, gun-control advocates love to call attention to the number of crimes committed with guns in America. Brushing the Constitution off like a Transportation Services parking ticket, these groups call for more laws, more interference with average citizens seeking to exercise their outdated (albeit enumerated) rights. Somehow, they confuse good citizens with criminals. Ignored is the fact that, in the hands of the law-abiding, firearms are frequently used to prevent crimes.



An exhaustive study on the effects of firearm ownership on crime by Professor John R. Lott bears this fact out. In his book, More Guns, Less Crime, Lott examines the results seen in many states after allowing qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. Lott found that, in counties allowing concealed handguns, the violent crime rate dropped an average of 5.5 percent, while neighboring counties not allowing concealed carry saw murder, rape, robbery, aggravated assault and property crimes all rise. Apparently, the criminals decided it would be in their best interest to choose victims less likely to be armed.



Noticing the clear trend in these areas of the country, Lott was curious as to how the crime rates would have been affected had all states adopted right-to-carry laws. In one year alone, he estimated that 1,500 murders and 4,000 rapes would have never taken place. While substantial on its own, this analysis does not even begin to tell the whole story. Lott reports that, according to surveys, 98 percent of the time guns are used defensively, and the mere sight of a gun will send an attacker running. Many such instances are never reported to police, distorting the true role of firearms in self-defense. Rather than being blamed for violent crime, firearms in the hands of average and law-abiding citizens should be credited with much success in thwarting crime.



Another trend anti-gunners should take notice of is the falling crime rate under the Bush administration and Ashcroft's Justice Department. As the Wall Street Journal reported this week, Ashcroft was initially attacked as attorney general because he believed Americans had a right to own guns. After two years in office, the violent crime rate is down from 12 percent to 9 percent. The reason? Ashcroft implemented Project Safe Neighborhoods, a plan similar to those long-advocated by the NRA and other gun-rights groups, as well as by law enforcement.



The plan called for more money and officers to be directed at enforcing the gun laws already in existence. In contrast to the Brady waiting period, which, according to John Lott, only put four criminals behind bars in the four years before it was determined to be unconstitutional, Project Safe Neighborhoods has been wildly successful. The same Journal article reveals that federal firearms prosecutions have increased 32 percent over Clinton administration prosecutions, with the vast majority of convicts receiving jail sentences of three or more years. The Ashcroft Justice Department has treated the right to bear arms with the respect it deserves, simultaneously reducing the rate of violent crime, simply by enforcing the laws already on the books. Somehow, this strategy had been conveniently overlooked by those hostile to gun rights."



Bold placed by me.
 
Good Samaritan Gun Use

"But what makes this case different is that 21 percent of the news stories actually mentioned that a citizen licensed to carry a concealed weapon used his gun to try and help stop the attack.

The citizen, 50 year old Mark Wilson, was one of the two people murdered. As CNN reported, “Everyone here agrees, Wilson saved lives.” Fox News' website quoted the sheriff as saying "if it hadn't been for Mr. Wilson, [Arroyo's son] would be dead."

Wilson, a licensed concealed handgun permit holder, heard Arroyo’s shots and saw the commotion from his apartment window. He grabbed a handgun and headed toward the attacker. Arroyo had already wounded several police officers and there was no one left to prevent his rampage.
Arroyo had also shot his 22-year-old son and was about ready to shoot him again from very close range when Wilson fired his gun, hitting Arroyo several times in the chest. Arroyo was wearing a bullet resistant vest and flak jacket and Wilson's shots did not seriously wound him. Yet, Wilson’s shots forced Arroyo to come after him, and it used up a couple of minutes of his time. Unfortunately, in the exchange of gunfire, Arroyo eventually fatally shot Wilson. With police arriving, Arroyo fled the scene and was later shot to death by police as they pursued him.
Neighbors described Wilson as “one of the nicest, sweetest guys I've ever known.” Others pointed out that “He's not going to sit back and -- when he could do something about it, and just let it happen” and called him a hero.

It is not remarkable that someone such as Mark Wilson was there at the scene to stop the attack before police arrived. For example, in about 30 percent of the multiple victim public school shootings that have captivated Americans’ attention starting in 1997, people used guns to stop the attacks before uniformed police were able to arrive on the scene. Few people know about these cases because only about one percent of the news stories on these cases mention how the attacks were stopped."

Fox news 3/8/2005
 
A Little History

A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
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China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
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Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
---- ------------- -------------
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million....and counting
 
"The Dallas Morning News reported late last month that a resident in the far north area of the city fatally shot two men after they forced their way into his home and attacked him. For this quick-thinking citizen, the personal firearm he kept in his home likely saved his life and the lives of his family. Perhaps those who persist in assailing the constitutional rights of American gun owners should reevaluate their position


Bold placed by me.

I am mostly ambivalent on the gun issue but I would ask you to cite a source for all of your stories.

Another member on here a while back during a similar debate mentioned that his daughter mentioned a story in Ohio where someone broke into someone's house and raped and murdered a whole family and how if that family had a gun, they would have been saved. IIRC, the perp was cited by name.

Problem is, extensive online searching yielded no such story. Our frequent posters on here from Ohio recalled no such story. Surely a family of four being raped and murdered would be known to people of Ohio.

Your stories appear to be cut and pasted or perhaps copied from a pro-gun website. Can you please explain the source, just for clarity? Thanks.
 
I am mostly ambivalent on the gun issue but I would ask you to cite a source for all of your stories.

Another member on here a while back during a similar debate mentioned that his daughter mentioned a story in Ohio where someone broke into someone's house and raped and murdered a whole family and how if that family had a gun, they would have been saved. IIRC, the perp was cited by name.

Problem is, extensive online searching yielded no such story. Our frequent posters on here from Ohio recalled no such story. Surely a family of four being raped and murdered would be known to people of Ohio.

Your stories appear to be cut and pasted or perhaps copied from a pro-gun website. Can you please explain the source, just for clarity? Thanks.

Dallas Morning News web-site. Thank you for your concern.

Question: If the stories had come from a pro-gun web-site, are they invalid?

If a news piece is from a biased source, such as the Wall Street Journal, should we discount it?
 
Dallas Morning News web-site. Thank you for your concern.

Question: If the stories had come from a pro-gun web-site, are they invalid?

If a news piece is from a biased source, such as the Wall Street Journal, should we discount it?

See, I couldn't find on the DMN website. If you have a link, I'd read the story.

And no, if it comes from a pro-gun website that doesn't make it invalid but it may mean that certain key points are left out or that others are embelished, just the same as anti-gun websites will post stories that are slanted in their favor.

That's pretty much par for the course with political hot button issues.
 
See, I couldn't find on the DMN website. If you have a link, I'd read the story.

And no, if it comes from a pro-gun website that doesn't make it invalid but it may mean that certain key points are left out or that others are embelished, just the same as anti-gun websites will post stories that are slanted in their favor.

That's pretty much par for the course with political hot button issues.


100% agreement Ken. I'll look for the link and post it.

On a side note, I have a couple of tales myself. Wouldn't require a citation of source (firearm presence was deterent enough), but it wouldn't matter. This situation seems set in stone for ODWire posters, either in the for or against camps.

Nothing said makes a difference to either party, but since I have saved myself from violent crime with a firearm, I won't ever change my position.
 
Saturday, April 11, 2009
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ROTTERDAM, Netherlands — A man pulled a gun in a crowded Dutch cafe after an argument Saturday and shot a patron inside, then rushed outside where he shot three more people, one fatally, police said.
Panic erupted in the cafe when the first shot rang out, but several people chased the gunman when he ran outside, overpowered and disarmed him, and wrestled him to the ground until police arrived, said police spokesman Remco Spaninxs.
The man, a 44-year-old Rotterdam resident, had gotten into an argument in the bar earlier in the evening and was asked to leave, said Spaninxs. He returned later with a hand gun and began shooting.
One person was wounded inside and three people were hit on the street, one of whom died, Spaninxs said.
All the casualties were inside the Laurenshof Cafe when the shooting began shortly before 1 a.m., he said. It was unclear if the victims were among those who tried to grapple with the gunman.
Television footage shortly after the incident showed medics giving emergency treatment to the wounded and loading them into ambulances. The body of the victim lay under a white sheet inside a cordon of police tape. Spaninxs said people in the cafe were in shock, crying and holding each other.
The Laurenshof is a small but popular bar with live music near a shopping mall on Poolster Square in the east side of the port city of Rotterdam. A talent contest was under way at the time of the shooting. The music was loud and the atmosphere was good, Spaninxs said.
He said the motive for the shooting was under investigation, though it likely was related to the argument earlier in the evening.
Spaninxs said the suspect had no previous criminal record as far as he knew. Police withheld his identity in accordance with Dutch law.
Police said the fatality was a 46-year-old man from Rotterdam but gave no further details. The other victims suffered gunshot wounds in the lower body.

Quite gutsy for the people to make a citizens arrest against an armed felon. I am quite impressed. I will have to monitor the story to see how this person got their gun and how it turned them into a crazed murderer.
 
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I was just wondering if anyone read this link, except for Kristopher?

That link is already changed. Someone must be on to you Kristopher. LOL.
 
Remember this is a public forum

I was just wondering if anyone read this link, except for Kristopher?

That link is already changed. Someone must be on to you Kristopher. LOL.

Many non-OD visitors view our conversation but unable to get into the discussion. So far there have been over 9000 views.

I wonder how they break down pro and anti gun advocates?
 
Many non-OD visitors view our conversation but unable to get into the discussion. So far there have been over 9000 views.

I wonder how they break down pro and anti gun advocates?

Poll: Fewer Americans support stricter gun control laws


  • <LI class=cnnHiliteHeader>Story Highlights
  • Poll: 54 for percent favored stricter laws in 2001, compared with 39 percent today
  • Long-term decline in support for gun control coincided with a decline in murder rate
  • Sudden change may be influenced by politics, namely the Obama administration
  • Nearly all the decline is from people who don't identify themselves as Democrats
  • Next Article in Politics »
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(CNN) -- From Oakland, California, to Binghamton, New York, several mass shootings in recent weeks have killed dozens across the country. But has there been an effect on public opinion?
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Fewer people fave stricter gun control after recent shootings, including one in Binghamton, New York.





Yes, and in a surprising way.
Since 2001, most Americans have favored stricter gun laws, though support has slightly dropped in recent years: 54 percent favored stricter laws in 2001, compared with 50 percent in 2007, according to Gallup polling.
Now, a recent poll reveals a sudden drop -- only 39 percent of Americans now favor stricter gun laws, according to a new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll.
The gradual, long-term decline in support for gun control from the early 1990s to 2008 coincided with a decline in the murder rate. But this year's sudden drop seems to be influenced by politics, namely the Obama administration.
"If [President Obama] and the people in control of Congress right now could have what they want, they would heavily restrict or eliminate guns from this country," said Sean Healy, an attorney who has advocated on behalf of gun-owner rights.
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Watch why some people don't want stricter gun laws »
Or, Americans may have heard the new administration's take on assault weapons.
"There are just a few gun-related changes that we would like to make, and among them would be to reinstate the ban on the sale of assault weapons," said Attorney General Eric Holder in February.
In March, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said, "I, as a senator, supported measures to try and reinstate it. Politically, that is a very big hurdle in our Congress. But there may be some approaches that could be acceptable, and we are exploring those."
Don't Miss

Still, the decline in American favor for stricter gun laws doesn't mean people want to see restrictions lifted -- 46 percent want no change in the current law, while only 15 percent want gun laws that are less strict.
Nearly all the decline in support for stricter gun laws is from people who don't identify themselves as Democrats. Six in 10 Democrats still support stricter gun laws, but support has dropped 13 points among Republicans and 17 points among independents. Half of all independents supported stricter gun laws in 2007; now only a third of them do.
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The poll, based on phone interviews with 1,023 U.S. adults from Friday through Sunday, were conducted after Friday's mass shooting in Binghamton, New York, where 13 people were killed at an immigrant services center.
On the issue of whether gun laws should be stricter, the poll contains a sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points. The breakdown of opinions on that issue over party lines had a sampling error of plus or minus 5.5 percentage points.