1. Welcome to ODwire.org, the largest and longest-running social network for eye care professionals, with over 20,000 ECP members!

    We offer private peer-to-peer discussions, articles, webinars, podcasts & more!

    Our site is free to all Optometrists, OD Students, Opticians, and Ophthalmologists, and practice administrators. Join us!

  2. *** CEwire2020 will be online LIVE on June 27 & 28
    63 LIVE COPE-Approved Credits! [REGISTER HERE] [COURSE SCHEDULE]
    Dismiss Notice

The 39,000 Question?

Discussion in 'CEwire2015' started by Paul Farkas, May 25, 2015.

  1. AdminWolf

    AdminWolf Site Administrator & Tech Lead
    Staff Member

    14,421
    Messages
    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2001
    School/Org:
    University of Michigan Medical School
    City:
    Lake Oswego
    State:
    OR
    I suspect in December, people -- in general -- aren't thinking about CE, they are thinking about Xmas.

    Unless they are short a few credits. But I think it might make more sense to do this again in the winter sometime.

    The question I have for everyone is -- when does the clock reset on the credits for most people? Is it January 1st?
     
  2. Joe DiGiorgio O.D.

    Joe DiGiorgio O.D. ODwire.org Supporting Member

    36,581
    Messages
    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2008
    School/Org:
    ICO
    City:
    Orland Park (Suburb of Chgo.)
    State:
    IL
    I always hated that the AAO meeting was in December. Very bad timing for all but the CE renewal issue.
     
  3. Ronald Bodman

    Ronald Bodman ODwire.org Supporting Member

    2,183
    Messages
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2012
    School/Org:
    PUCO
    City:
    Brookings
    State:
    Or
    Mine resets in June.
     
  4. Frederick Frost

    Frederick Frost ODwire.org Supporting Member

    7,801
    Messages
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    School/Org:
    Ohio State University College of Optometry
    City:
    Zanesville
    State:
    OH
    Ohio is 09/30.
     
  5. AdminWolf

    AdminWolf Site Administrator & Tech Lead
    Staff Member

    14,421
    Messages
    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2001
    School/Org:
    University of Michigan Medical School
    City:
    Lake Oswego
    State:
    OR
    Hmm.. i'm trying to get a sense here of when most states reset -- so January 1st isn't an important date for most?
     
  6. Marc Burcham

    Marc Burcham ODwire.org Supporting Member

    899
    Messages
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2007
    School/Org:
    Ohio State University College of Optometry
    City:
    Cincinnati
    State:
    OH
    In Ohio, hours must be obtained before October 1st of each year (I believe?).... And I do procrastinate.

    Ohio does allow 10 hours of online CE... But I can get free online CE from Review of Optometry, and if there's a $20 or $35 dollar course I really want to do, I'll do that also. The number of "granted" (or free) CE the past couple of years has really increased.

    In Cincinnati, I do 2 CE Sunday seminars provided through Diversified Ophthalmics every year (totaling between 16-18 hours for 2 Sundays a year... Normally one in April and the other in August), and the rest I do online in the fall. Often, the online CE I do after the last Sunday Seminar so I don't do an online course of something I have to sit through anyways.

    If Ohio allowed all Online CE (won't happen with how successful there East-West is in Cleveland every year)... You can sure bet I would have signed up for CEWire2015 and got all 25 hours I needed. A MUCH better deal than paying $250 to Diversified twice every year, and yet still needing online CE on top of it.
     
  7. Frederick Frost

    Frederick Frost ODwire.org Supporting Member

    7,801
    Messages
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    School/Org:
    Ohio State University College of Optometry
    City:
    Zanesville
    State:
    OH
    I'd like to make a couple of comments to let you know what I think about the conference.

    I am extremely satisfied with the quality of material. I'm also very glad that several people who contribute on here regularly free of charge, are being rewarded for their knowledge. I hope next year more individuals sign up and higher speaker fees which are well-deserved.

    While I am only allowed to use technically 10 hours of this, that is not is why I have signed up. I'm going to do all 30 hours, and enjoy every minute of it. Everyone talks about the continuing education, but is not talking about the numerous things that the doctor will learn to help their patients. Some of these lectures are pure gold.

    The on demand function was a great and still is very useful benefit of this. I have long commutes to some of my homes, and I literally will listen to a course in the car, and pull off the exit and do the test! That leverage of time is of great use to me and I'm sure others here.

    Don't worry on how many paid people sign up for the courses, you did a fantastic job, and I know it will get even better. All 39,000 will never sign up just as all 39,000 never do the same things. That should be the least of your concerns. Just keep producing high-quality, with the increased convenience. Attendance will improve every year. Make sure you and Paul are also compensated for your time.

    Thanks for doing it.


    Fred


    Fred
     
    Ed Makler likes this.
  8. Steve Silberberg

    Steve Silberberg ODwire.org Supporting Member

    8,565
    Messages
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2012
    School/Org:
    SUNY Stonybrook/SUNY/MIT
    City:
    Matawan
    State:
    NJ
    Thanks Fred for the nice comments. I helped Paul and Adam out in this endeavor and believe me they worked like dogs before, during and now after the live conference. A lot of problems and a alot of coordination + Adam traveling to conventions like VEE to solict vendors. The speakers were wonderful but technical challenges also arise. Adam spent tons on the equipment to produce the live feed. Imagine them talking for 7 hours 2 days in a row...........Amazing!!
     
  9. Richard Frankel

    Richard Frankel Well-Known Member

    8,054
    Messages
    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2002
    School/Org:
    Pennsylvania College of Optometry
    City:
    Somerset
    State:
    NJ
    Now. We need to exploit the potential for this technology to its fullest. National symposiums could truly be national in reach. Today, I was talking about a day long conference on diabetes. It would start with general medical and go into DR at the end of the day. Now, if it was simulcast over the ODwire infrastructure...
     
  10. Donald bader

    Donald bader Active Member

    114
    Messages
    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    School/Org:
    Osu
    City:
    Boise
    State:
    Id
    If we could have a written presentation as well as the video it would be very helpful.
     
    Michael Barris likes this.
  11. Paul Farkas

    Paul Farkas Administrator

    72,208
    Messages
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2000
    School/Org:
    Columbia University / PCO
    City:
    Lake Oswego
    State:
    OR
    You would like the speaker's power point presentation? Interesting...what is it worth to you to have a hard copy?
     
  12. Jonathan Warner

    Jonathan Warner ODwire.org Supporting Member

    24,009
    Messages
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2002
    School/Org:
    Ohio State University College of Optometry
    City:
    Kenton
    State:
    OH

    I did not sign up because I already had all the hours and more that I needed for this CE year. I don't need any more until 10-01-15. Then I would be very interested.
     
  13. Steven Nelson

    Steven Nelson ODwire.org Supporting Member

    35,964
    Messages
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2007
    School/Org:
    SCO
    City:
    Fredericksburg
    State:
    TX
    You'll be 2 months late, punchy
     
  14. Joe DiGiorgio O.D.

    Joe DiGiorgio O.D. ODwire.org Supporting Member

    36,581
    Messages
    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2008
    School/Org:
    ICO
    City:
    Orland Park (Suburb of Chgo.)
    State:
    IL
    Has anyone already asked. Is there a way to get the presentation by April Jasper, OD, to run?

    Thank you.
     
  15. Chuck Barnes

    Chuck Barnes ODwire.org Supporting Member

    31
    Messages
    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2002
    School/Org:
    SCO
    City:
    Mc Comb
    State:
    MS
    Some state boards limit online ce hours
     
  16. Paul Farkas

    Paul Farkas Administrator

    72,208
    Messages
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2000
    School/Org:
    Columbia University / PCO
    City:
    Lake Oswego
    State:
    OR
    We are contacting Dr Jasper. She recorded the entire lecture and there was no sound.

    She must resolve her technical problem and then decide whether to do the lecture or wait until next time.

    Either way CEwire2015 has the 30 hours promised. We added an extra hour for this type of eventuality.
     
  17. Paul Farkas

    Paul Farkas Administrator

    72,208
    Messages
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2000
    School/Org:
    Columbia University / PCO
    City:
    Lake Oswego
    State:
    OR
    Sad but true.

    ODs in a given state must ask their state board to increase their on line CE hours or explain why not. For example, Florida does not allow any on line CE credit.

    The exam at the end for C/E credit combined with the "On Demand" feature assures participants will learn the material by allowing a re-visit to the course. Compare that to an in person attendance without the need for an exam to determine if the material was learned.
     
  18. #38 Jun 14, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2015
    Michael W Ohlson

    Michael W Ohlson Well-Known Member

    2,166
    Messages
    Joined:
    May 20, 2008
    School/Org:
    UHCO
    City:
    Marshall
    State:
    MN
    Your "explain why not" phrase is important.

    We're at a place where we have some information re. physician learning and effective CE.

    Traditionally, showing up to a grab a seat and listen passively or read the newspaper (those flimsy sheets of wood-based material with ink marks on them) while whoever was speaking on whatever topic, relevant or not, hasn't been shown to be terribly effective.

    While far from perfect, some tweaks in design help. The methods can easily be adopted in optometry. They require a different thought process and a bit more effort. Nothing extensive or impossible or needless. Other major health care professions already use them. We can catch up and should do so IMO unless our patients are less important and our profession is uniquely above criticisms from the outside. Or perhaps our physician-learners don't mind paying for less effectiveness or wastes of time. I doubt that.

    ARBO held a large meeting of CE stakeholders in Chicago a few years back. One of the speakers was a big name in said physician-learner theory.

    Yes, we're nerds. I'm aware.

    The learner theory aspects can be utilized in pretty much any method of delivery.

    Charged with protecting the public, the state boards/jurisdictions should demand the most effective CE for MOL, free of commercial influence, with valid content, aimed at improving knowledge, performance in practice, and better outcomes. To choose otherwise... what does that say? Does it come with risks?

    Obviously, there are many stakeholders. I know. I get it. I'm familiar with the various uses and benefits in CE. In addition, some CE providers are small in size. Labor and capital are relevant. Totally see it. Look at where I live.

    Regardless, the challenge is here now. A while back, actually. Not new in health care. Not caring about it and not knowing anything about it... not really excuses.
     
  19. Steven Nelson

    Steven Nelson ODwire.org Supporting Member

    35,964
    Messages
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2007
    School/Org:
    SCO
    City:
    Fredericksburg
    State:
    TX
    What are some examples of what "they" do that we're lacking? I don't mean in terms of objectivity because removing commercial bias SHOULD be a given. I'm talking more in terms of actual delivery of CE. More online with testing? Tests at live presentations?

    What are they doing that we need to emulate?
     
  20. #40 Jun 14, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2015
    Michael W Ohlson

    Michael W Ohlson Well-Known Member

    2,166
    Messages
    Joined:
    May 20, 2008
    School/Org:
    UHCO
    City:
    Marshall
    State:
    MN
    First, the stds (requirements) of commercial support for optometric CE to reduce bias, a no-brainer, were fought tooth and nail by almost everyone even after public actions and records of the SFC, announcements, calls for comment, delays, two nat'l educational mtgs, and so forth. Find some real evidence that optometry thought they were a good idea and realized they were necessary. Good luck. You won't. It was humiliating for the profession and remains so. A black mark.

    As for CE, we do some things well and there's no need to emulate anyone else (sounds bad to some, like an insult; sensitive folks) so much as attain community standards. So, that's a plus. CME/CE has plenty o' critics. Lotta politics. The IOA does an excellent job at CE. Others, too.

    Not all. Think "all" for a few minutes, just for an exercise. Think about all the CE in every jurisdiction, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Perfection ain't easy, of course. Think about the patients. Vision, eye disease, and related systemic conditions. Think about the OD-learners, the actual profession.

    To your point, several aspects of learner theory appear applicable. The papers are kinda long. I'll be curt. It actually demands homework. At least it did for me.

    Obviously, there will be skepticism, push-back, what-ifs, fear, revulsion, outrage, and so on. Mainly confusion and jumping to unfounded conclusions or absolute denial of any dilemma based upon not knowing better or fear of change. I know. I didn't invent it. I report the science and the standards. What individuals in optometry believe and do is up to them, of course.

    All education is a work in progress.

    "Start with the end in mind." Not my words. Knowledge gaps exist in health care. This is not a criticism of medicine or optometry or any person. Just is. A gap can be thought of as a problem. Let's say that opiates kill people and that some of that can be addressed by altered procedures in care. Not all, some. Gap. If "problem" seems too judgmental and that scares someone, call it a situation. It's not an invasive procedure.

    The other aspect is to address effectiveness. That's a bit different than "Did you enjoy the meeting? Was the food okay?" However, it does not mean there must be a test. You might have noticed that MDs and ODs aren't that pleased with testing and that a lot of testing doesn't really indicate performance in practice. Surveys might be a method to see if practice patterns were altered. And, the answer may be 'no.'

    Relevance is important. Given that some standards are just central, certainly, like DFE and diabetes (or apparently just DFE... sonnuva... I digressed, sorry), other areas of practice might be relevant to one OD and not to another.

    Turns out we don't do well at self-assessment. Stink. That's for MDs, not ODs; no OD research exists. In addition, the lower 25% ranks themselves as "above average" in competence. Consistently. Again, MDs. But, humans are humans and I see us as doctors. My post, my rules. :)

    Some techniques work better than others. I learn by doing. Didactic is pretty much wasted on me. But, that's a bit ahead of the game. Technology will change and so will everything else. Simulations work.

    The concept is one of moving health care forward, not just optometry. It's already here. Now.

    One can measure CE from the lowest level of effectiveness, attendance, to the highest, improved community health. Most will fall short of the top and by design. Hard to attain.

    I understand that politics will take ugly turns (has now) and people are burned out/stressed (costs, hoops, EMR, ICD-10, VCPs, etc.) and paradigms enter into it... blah, blah, blah. Just the situation. Money. Avarice. Fear. Paranoia. Envy. Vengeance. Whatever. I can't stop that. Not in my control. I stopped caring, swear to God. I hope we make good choices. This time.

    I will try to control that which I can control to make good, independent accreditation work for the optometry patients and the providers, particularly the small ones. It can be done.

    Fairly simple adjustments have been proposed for optometry that increase effectiveness. Over 2700 CE providers already voluntarily do this type of thing.

    It's a bit more thought and effort to CE. The benefits, particularly for the fairly easily attained knowledge gap and effectiveness aspects (again, takes a bit of thought and will; doable) outweigh the costs. Unless our patients and OD-learners don't matter.

    My experience in speaking to others that did the same thing is that it all worked out after a bit of adjustment. We can do it and we should. For the patients. For ourselves.

    It's not that new. It's new to some ODs.