CEwire2015

[Paul Farkas]

We made the headlines in Optometry Times 4/4/15...


Virtual conference growth in optometry

ODWire recently announced that it will host a virtual conference next month called CEWire, providing 30 hours of COPE-approved credit for $99. Profits from the conference will go to charity.» The growing virtual CE trend

 

[AdminWolf]

We made the headlines in Optometry Times 4/4/15...


Virtual conference growth in optometry

ODWire recently announced that it will host a virtual conference next month called CEWire, providing 30 hours of COPE-approved credit for $99. Profits from the conference will go to charity.» The growing virtual CE trend

wow, i sound like Ohlson in that piece! What has become of me?

 

[Steve Silberberg]

Great job Ms. Bailey

 

[Gretchyn Bailey]

Thank you. Thank you very much.

 

[Michael W Ohlson]

wow, i sound like Ohlson in that piece! What has become of me?

Maybe you sound a little like me. Maybe. Some of it. I have a few bones to pick. I'll bide my time.

But, it's fun to watch this, I must say. There are some excellent points being made and some reasonable discussions among colleagues. Hell, that right there has a lot of merit, doesn't it?

While optometry has many groups and challenges, the two that mean the most IMO are the patients and the ODs. Harm a patient or do something difficult to defend publicly and it's bad for all. The profession is really all of the ODs, not the various groups.

I realize people disagree. C'est la vie. I wouldn't advise ignoring the concerns of the multiple stakeholders; that would be unwise. I just think it's best to remember what's really important to long-term public health and the actual success of a small health care profession as compared to short-term gain for some, a demonstrated and alarming lack of knowledge of 21st century requirements in self-regulation, acting on old grudges, and so on.

That sounds like me.

 

[Richard Frankel]

Hav

It is true that each plan I made "done fell through." So, I'll give you that.

Now, let's see a version of Batman in his fifties. Not the fifties, his fifties. Older, not in his physical prime, and quite a bit less tolerant of poor behaviors. Appeals to me quite a bit.

View attachment 6494

View attachment 6495

Have you forgotten Batman Beyond?

 

[Michael W Ohlson]

Hav


Have you forgotten Batman Beyond?

Nope. I see some merit in Batman Beyond, but I prefer the stories from the 1940s and some of the '50s. Along the way, some of the story lines and artwork have been quite good. Neal Adams drew some great Batman images in the sixties and '70s. Frank Miller's Dark Knight altered comics in the '80s and still does.

The current comics are losing me, damn it. Must be getting old. These things happen.

The idea of reacting to life's terrible trauma by attempting to create your best self in science, detective skills, and physical abilities so that others don't suffer in the same manner always appealed to me. Since age five. That's Batman. No super powers.

I am one weird person. I know.

I also like old Disney comics, Sgt. Rock, and several others. Loser.

 

[Richard Frankel]

Nope. I see some merit in Batman Beyond, but I prefer the stories from the 1940s and some of the '50s. Along the way, some of the story lines and artwork have been quite good. Neal Adams drew some great Batman images in the sixties and '70s. Frank Miller's Dark Knight altered comics in the '80s and still does.

The current comics are losing me, damn it. Must be getting old. These things happen.

The idea of reacting to life's terrible trauma by attempting to create your best self in science, detective skills, and physical abilities so that others don't suffer in the same manner always appealed to me. Since age five. That's Batman. No super powers.

I am one weird person. I know.

I also like old Disney comics, Sgt. Rock, and several others. Loser.

For aminute there, I thought you were describing Optometry.

You are not alone, I have the complete Carl Barks and Don Rosa collection. We started collecting them when my daughter refused to learn to read. It was the comics that got her to. Now I'm waiting for a grandchild old enough to start.

 

[Michael W Ohlson]

For aminute there, I thought you were describing Optometry.

You are not alone, I have the complete Carl Barks and Don Rosa collection. We started collecting them when my daughter refused to learn to read. It was the comics that got her to. Now I'm waiting for a grandchild old enough to start.

My people!

There's an optometric analogy, yes. Thought of it years ago. I have been outed.

 

[Steven Nelson]

Nope. I see some merit in Batman Beyond, but I prefer the stories from the 1940s and some of the '50s. Along the way, some of the story lines and artwork have been quite good. Neal Adams drew some great Batman images in the sixties and '70s. Frank Miller's Dark Knight altered comics in the '80s and still does.

The current comics are losing me, damn it. Must be getting old. These things happen.

The idea of reacting to life's terrible trauma by attempting to create your best self in science, detective skills, and physical abilities so that others don't suffer in the same manner always appealed to me. Since age five. That's Batman. No super powers.

I am one weird person. I know.

I also like old Disney comics, Sgt. Rock, and several others. Loser.

The beauty of Batman Beyond is the concept of Batman being a mantle to be passed on more than a person.

I don't actually watch or read this particular series, but I like the concept.

 

[Steve Silberberg]

For NJ docs:
http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/faq/optfaqslic.htm#2c
3. How many continuing education credits can I obtain from Internet or correspondence courses?

A maximum of 20 of the mandatory 50 continuing professional optometric education credits, including a maximum of 10 of the mandatory 30 TPA credits required (these 10 can be ORAL CE credits to satisfy the required amount), from any or all of the following:

1. Videotape, audiotape, computer media, Internet, journal, or correspondence courses or programs. The course or program shall include an examination at the end of the course or program.

2. Structured grand round, which is a presentation, with a formal outline of the course or program material, of clinical cases involving actual patient encounters and the lecture and discussion of the diagnosis and treatment of the particular patient condition.

3. Hands-on demonstration of instrumentation when accompanied by didactic lectures.

4. Interactive workshops which include demonstrations and applications of hands-on techniques and skills in optometric procedures and instrumentations accompanied by didactic lectures.

5. Preparation and presentation of a continuing professional otpometric education lecture.

6. Preparation of an educational or scientific article authored and published in a professional refere

 

[Michael W Ohlson]

The beauty of Batman Beyond is the concept of Batman being a mantle to be passed on more than a person.

I don't actually watch or read this particular series, but I like the concept.

Telling me about Batman... you know no boundaries.

 

[Steven Nelson]

Telling me about Batman... you know no boundaries.

I was just telling you what I LIKE about it. I would never presume to try and educate you on the caped crusader.

 

[Richard Frankel]

For NJ docs:
http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/faq/optfaqslic.htm#2c
3. How many continuing education credits can I obtain from Internet or correspondence courses?

A maximum of 20 of the mandatory 50 continuing professional optometric education credits, including a maximum of 10 of the mandatory 30 TPA credits required (these 10 can be ORAL CE credits to satisfy the required amount), from any or all of the following:

1. Videotape, audiotape, computer media, Internet, journal, or correspondence courses or programs. The course or program shall include an examination at the end of the course or program.

2. Structured grand round, which is a presentation, with a formal outline of the course or program material, of clinical cases involving actual patient encounters and the lecture and discussion of the diagnosis and treatment of the particular patient condition.

3. Hands-on demonstration of instrumentation when accompanied by didactic lectures.

4. Interactive workshops which include demonstrations and applications of hands-on techniques and skills in optometric procedures and instrumentations accompanied by didactic lectures.

5. Preparation and presentation of a continuing professional otpometric education lecture.

6. Preparation of an educational or scientific article authored and published in a professional refere

I thought we were discussing Batman here

 

[Paul Farkas]

Editor's note: Back to topic please.

A duplicate of a post in the private State of Optometry forum by our technical guiding light Adam Farkas, MD,MBA explaining "perverse incentives" in non-MBA language...

Adam explained...

Everyone is getting freaked out over that term:

"Perverse Incentive" isn't an insult -- is a phrase that economists use, it has a specific meaning (they have lots of other great, evocative phrases, like "deadweight loss" for instance. Colorful folks, those economists...)

In this case, "Perverse Incentive" means that the incentive to do something is not aligned with the original purpose of the thing that you're doing.

The classic example are the Hanoi rats -- where the Vietnamese government paid a bounty for each rat people killed and turned in. This did not lead to fewer rats -- it instead led to rat farming. The exact opposite of what they wanted.

In order to avoid a perverse incentive in CE, you need to go back to first principles. The question is (or should be): "What is compulsory CE for?"

The answer is (in my opinion): to protect the public. That is the purpose of compulsory, mandatory, state-required CE.

It is in the public interest for courses to be inexpensive (so as not to be an undue burden on providers), varied (so docs will take the classes, and actually pay attention, not play angry birds), and clinically relevant to the particular provider and their patient population.

Anyone that attempts to provide CE should, in my opinion, have these goals in mind when developing a program.

But frequently this is not what we see.

For-profit companies that develop CE have to keep a close eye on the bottom line, which means that they will frequently offer less variety (each additional course is expensive to offer), and/or fewer speakers (speakers will frequently offer their services at a discount if they are allowed to speak for multiple hours at an event -- which is why you'll sometimes get one person droning on for 8 hours.)

We've even seen this with online programs -- corners cut, speakers unpaid, and meager variety, even though the online format offers the ideal venue to have a wide range of topics.

The problems are amplified when CE is used as a 'hook' or 'lure' to get people to go to a physical conference. (Conferences where, bluntly, the purpose is mostly commercial, not educational.) Again, the classes are the lure, taking advantage of the fact that the clinician must take classes, somewhere, or else lose their license. Whether the education offered is good, bad, or indifferent isn't the point. Getting warm bodies through the door is.

The Academy is a different kettle of fish -- their raison d'etre is education, so I would expect nothing less than a good show from them!

And it is nice to know that the dollars clinicians pay in to CE at the Academy go right back into the profession -- your funds don't get pocketed by individuals, or get sent straight off to investors at a private equity group. (Yes, the leading publisher in eye care is a portfolio company of a private equity concern in NY. That's where your CE dollars eventually end up when you take their courses, for better or worse.)

So with CEwire we took the opposite approach, taking into account that CE is both compulsory, and exists to protect the public.

We decided to:

1) pour resources directly into the speakers to get the best show possible (ie, pay them at honoraria market rates, prevent distorted incentives/cost cutting by not discounting for multiple hours, or nickel-and-diming. That is, paying them what they are worth, because their performance and the classes that they develop mean everything to getting a good educational outcome.)

2) As with #1 -- we asked as many of the best speakers to talk as possible -- trying to offer as many credit hours as possible in the program, costs-be-damned. Variety is critical to making a useful show, IMO.

3) Should the conference survive & turn a profit, we're endeavoring to try to put those funds right back into eye care, however we can (we chose the 3 charities we thought most people would be happy with, representing both direct patient care & the science of eye care.)

Again, this goes along with the idea of protecting and servicing the public, and we hope it is an effective use of clinician dollars. If you're going to be forced to take CE, we wanted to at least help the medicine go down a little easier...

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Adam Farkas
ODwire.org Staff / Tech Lead

Editor's note: for more of the CEwire2015 back story if you are an ODwire.org professional member...
https://www.odwire.org/threads/the-odwire-org-approach-to-optometric-continuing-education.87947/
--

 

[AdminWolf]

"Perverse Incentive" isn't an insult -- is a phrase that economists use, it has a specific meaning (they have lots of other great, evocative phrases, like "deadweight loss" for instance. Colorful folks, those economists...)

Hope that was a decent explanation.

We're really trying to just help people get the credits as affordably as possible, while having the very best possible speakers at the show, not thinking too hard about how much they are costing us. Because the program content means everything. (One great part about the internet -- it allows you to strip away the extraneous when planning an event like this. We can't lure you with the promise of a Hawaiian vacation, or good skiing.)

 

[Craig Steinberg OD JD]

Hope that was a decent explanation.

We're really trying to just help people get the credits as affordably as possible, while having the very best possible speakers at the show, not thinking too hard about how much they are costing us. Because the program content means everything. (One great part about the internet -- it allows you to strip away the extraneous when planning an event like this. We can't lure you with the promise of a Hawaiian vacation, or good skiing.)

Why not? You could try... Perhaps a 10% discount if you log in from Hawaii.

 

[Michael W Ohlson]

Why not? You could try... Perhaps a 10% discount if you log in from Hawaii.

 

[Gretchyn Bailey]

How hard do you have to look to find these images?

 

[Michael W Ohlson]

How hard do you have to look to find these images?

Generally, seconds. I have a long memory. Too long. Sometimes, that's fun, like with comic book images. Or poorly stated arguments. Or articles supporting my opinions. Remembering poor decisions or hurtful conversations verbatim and so on... not as much.

"I feel every needle that pierced through my heart." -- Bed of Coals, Warren Zevon

It's a harsh world.

In this case, the curtailed silly Batman conversation followed by the Hawaii CE segue... too easy. Frankly, 98% of what I do is for my own entertainment. I'm an idiot.

 

[Gretchyn Bailey]

Doing it for your own entertainment is the ONLY reason, IMO.

 

[Michael W Ohlson]

Doing it for your own entertainment is the ONLY reason, IMO.

View attachment 6513

Might be time to move on, then.

I really do care about the public good and the profession. Both. Moron.

This is because I am stupid. I sense retirement, however. I don't sense acknowledgment of the significant issues facing optometry by various stake-holders. Certainly not to the masses. This occurs in all politics, not just optometry. The actual ODs care. ODwire demonstrates that. There are glaring absences in conversations, aren't there? Steven Nelson is totally mad, sure, and has a lot of weapons. But, he does care about the future of the profession and speaks up without a glimmer of fear re. popularity.

Getting back to CE, there are many ways to educate doctors. The CEwire concept may allow increased effectiveness, efficiency, convenience, and a bit of fun. Address adult learning, reduce knowledge gaps (a bit like 'perverse incentive;' not an insult to anyone or a profession) to affect community health... you got somethin'.

I assume CE politics will spiral into madness. I have come to expect this now, exactly like I anticipate gravity or VCP misunderstandings. Preparation helps.

See how I got that back to CEwire, Paul?

 

[Paul Farkas]

See how I got that back to CEwire, Paul?

Thanks for that.

We have to see how CEwire2015 plays out? Will there be a move to copy by state ,regional and national meetings?

Will set boards expand hours for on line C/E or under pressure by live convention interests contract or eliminate?

Who will be the approving body for accreditation? Continue to be COPE or will the AOA try to take control?

Stay tuned...

 

[Tom Stickel]

Doing it for your own entertainment is the ONLY reason, IMO.

View attachment 6513

Can never have too much popcorn. At least until the zombies come.

 

[Abraham Gottfried]

[N Y allows up to 9 hours if interactive which begs the question, are these courses considered interactive? Is the NY board aware of these courses, and would they have an answer for me if I inquired? "AdminWolf, post: 583057, member: 1"]View attachment 6453
http://www.cewire2015.com

I'm happy to announce the launch of CEwire2015, ODwire.org's Virtual CE conference!

We've gone all-out to give you A-list speakers (including a few ODwire.org regulars!) and 30+ COPE CE credits at a very low price.

The show will also have a virtual exhibit hall, with many vendors showing off their latest products (with some show specials!)

In addition to making it inexpensive to attend, profits from the event are going to charity.

Read up on why we're doing this at the official conference wiki, and ask questions in this thread.

Registration is open now, and early-bird pricing is in effect.

We're looking forward to a fun show!

Thanks,
Adam, Paul & the all the folks at ODwire.org who volunteered & helped assemble the event![/QUOTE]
NY allo

 

[AdminWolf]

N Y allows up to 9 hours if interactive which begs the question, are these courses considered interactive? Is the NY board aware of these courses, and would they have an answer for me if I inquired?]

Mike, what do you think?

 

[Michael W Ohlson]

Mike, what do you think?

• Am I required to physically attend courses to meet the continuing education requirement?
  Answer: Yes. Optometrists must complete at least three-quarters of their continuing education hours by physically attending courses at the location where the course is being presented (27 of the 36 contact hours required for a 3 year registration). Up to one-quarter of the required hours may be completed via live instruction in a formal course of study offered through an alternate medium, provided the student is able to communicate and interact with the course instructor (a maximum of 9 contact hours out of 36).

• What is "live instruction in a formal course of study offered through an alternate medium"?
  Answer: Live instruction in a formal course of study offered through an alternate medium are those courses in which you are not physically present at the location where the course is given, but you are able to interact with the instructor. For example: a telecourse or teleconference in which you and the instructor can speak directly with each other; a course in which you and other practitioners discuss a taped presentation with a facilitator's assistance; a computerized course in which you are able to interact directly with the instructor.
  
  Examples of activities not considered to be live coursework through alternate medium and therefore would not be acceptable include reading educational articles in journals, including those for which the licensee would complete and submit a test and televised lectures with no means of direct interaction, even if it is a live telecast
  
  To help facilitate the approval process, the Department has pre-approved the following sponsors of continuing education:
  • accredited colleges of optometry;
  • Council on Optometric Practitioner Education (COPE) approved coursework;
  • The American Academy of Optometry;
  • The American Optometric Association;
  • state societies (but not chapters);and
  • continuing medical education (CME) approved by the American Medical Association.
  If you are considering a course not offered by one of the providers in the above listing, please notify the provider that they may request prior approval of their course by completing Form 1-SBO (
  
  17 KB) and submitting it by mail to the New York State Board for Optometry, 89 Washington Avenue, Second Floor West, Albany, NY 12234-1000 or by fax 518-473-0567.
  
  If you are unsure whether a sponsor offering a continuing education program is approved, feel free to contact the Optometry Board by phone at 518-474-3817, ext. 591, by fax at 518-473-0567, or by e-mail at optombd@nysed.gov.
  
  http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/optom/optomceques.htm
  
  I went to link above after Googling NY Board of Optometry. Copied a bit for you. I would ask the ODs to correspond personally with the board so as to allow for no misunderstandings. It reads as though 'direct interaction' with the instructor is key. I doubt laws and rules have caught up to technology in most jurisdictions.

Editor's note: For those new ODwire.org, Dr Michael Ohlson is former chair of the Association of Regulatory Boards of Optometry (ARBO)

 

[AdminWolf]

• Am I required to physically attend courses to meet the continuing education requirement?
  Answer: Yes. Optometrists must complete at least three-quarters of their continuing education hours by physically attending courses at the location where the course is being presented (27 of the 36 contact hours required for a 3 year registration). Up to one-quarter of the required hours may be completed via live instruction in a formal course of study offered through an alternate medium, provided the student is able to communicate and interact with the course instructor (a maximum of 9 contact hours out of 36).

• What is "live instruction in a formal course of study offered through an alternate medium"?
  Answer: Live instruction in a formal course of study offered through an alternate medium are those courses in which you are not physically present at the location where the course is given, but you are able to interact with the instructor. For example: a telecourse or teleconference in which you and the instructor can speak directly with each other; a course in which you and other practitioners discuss a taped presentation with a facilitator's assistance; a computerized course in which you are able to interact directly with the instructor.
  
  Examples of activities not considered to be live coursework through alternate medium and therefore would not be acceptable include reading educational articles in journals, including those for which the licensee would complete and submit a test and televised lectures with no means of direct interaction, even if it is a live telecast
  
  To help facilitate the approval process, the Department has pre-approved the following sponsors of continuing education:
  • accredited colleges of optometry;
  • Council on Optometric Practitioner Education (COPE) approved coursework;
  • The American Academy of Optometry;
  • The American Optometric Association;
  • state societies (but not chapters);and
  • continuing medical education (CME) approved by the American Medical Association.
  If you are considering a course not offered by one of the providers in the above listing, please notify the provider that they may request prior approval of their course by completing Form 1-SBO (
  
  17 KB) and submitting it by mail to the New York State Board for Optometry, 89 Washington Avenue, Second Floor West, Albany, NY 12234-1000 or by fax 518-473-0567.
  
  If you are unsure whether a sponsor offering a continuing education program is approved, feel free to contact the Optometry Board by phone at 518-474-3817, ext. 591, by fax at 518-473-0567, or by e-mail at optombd@nysed.gov.
  
  http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/optom/optomceques.htm
  
  I went to link above after Googling NY Board of Optometry. Copied a bit for you. I would ask the ODs to correspond personally with the board so as to allow for no misunderstandings. It reads as though 'direct interaction' with the instructor is key. I doubt laws and rules have caught up to technology in most jurisdictions.

Editor's note: For those new ODwire.org, Dr Michael Ohlson is former chair od the Association of Regulatory Boards of Optometry (ASCO)

Thanks mike, i'm contacting the NY board now.

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[Paul Farkas]

I went to link above after Googling NY Board of Optometry. Copied a bit for you. I would ask the ODs to correspond personally with the board so as to allow for no misunderstandings. It reads as though 'direct interaction' with the instructor is key. I doubt laws and rules have caught up to technology in most jurisdictions.

To cover "direct interaction with instructor", it will be necessary for the attendee to participate in the live lectures on May 16 and May 17 when the instructor is available to answer questions in real time.

Taking the courses on demand afterwards will allow attendees to have the COPE approved courses but obviously no instructor will be present for 3 months 24/7. We will have topics underway on ODwire.org forums where questions may be asked and hopefully instructors will respond but not in real time.

This approach should satisfy even most particular state board.

My question to state boards is how do you make certain attendees to live courses at meeting absorb the material? How many in audiences sneak a look at their iPhone, iPad or a bit of shut eye for the 50 minutes?

 

[Michael W Ohlson]

Paul Farkas commented..
"My question to state boards is how do you make certain attendees to live courses at meeting absorb the material? How many in audiences sneak a look at their iPhone, iPad or a bit of shut eye for the 50 minutes?"

That's a fair question. I've asked it many times. Add bored silly, newspapers, talking, stepping out and coming back just in time for the end, and so on. I don't learn well in lectures. I just do not.

Medicine's CME can be quite... casual. So, it's often pointed out that optometry can be a bit more regimented. This is either stated as an example of doing something correctly or stated more as 'why can't we be like them?'

Ultimately, you can't force someone to learn. Speakers vary. The aptness of the lecture varies. If the material isn't relevant to the OD learner's practice, there's a disconnect from the beginning.

What if the material is little more than an advertisement?

What's magical about 50 minutes?

How does one ensure the OD learner will reflect upon the material? Will performance change? Will that result in improvements for patients?

Nerd-losers think about these things.

 

[AdminWolf]

Happy to announce another sponsor to the list -- Allergan has come on board. Looking forward to working with them at the show!

Thanks,
Adam

 

[Paul Farkas]

Happy to announce another sponsor to the list -- Allergan has come on board. Looking forward to working with them at the show!

Thanks,
Adam

Having time to visit with vendors.

We have arranged the exhibit hall to be open one before and one hour after lectures. In addition there is a one hour break mid courses to allow participants to refresh themselves and also visit vendors who will have interesting presentations about their product.

Sales reps will be available in real time.

 

[Gretchyn Bailey]

Happy to announce another sponsor to the list -- Allergan has come on board. Looking forward to working with them at the show!

Thanks,
Adam

Wow!

 

[Adam Lusk]

If everyone could check out the chart and let me know if changes need to be made, i'd appreciate it!

Just checking, will you accept registrations from international optometrists? Even for ~$130 AUD it would be good to tune in.

 

[Lynbeth Neal Lorey]

This is a fantastic idea, but I think Kentucky and Tennessee require that all CE be co-sponsored by an optometry school, a medical school, a state association, a regional association, or a national association, whether or not it is COPE approved. You have NOVA Southeastern listed as the test certifiers, but it would need to specifically say co-sponsored by them to count for those states. Can you work on that for the future?

 

[AdminWolf]

This is a fantastic idea, but I think Kentucky and Tennessee require that all CE be co-sponsored by an optometry school, a medical school, a state association, a regional association, or a national association, whether or not it is COPE approved. You have NOVA Southeastern listed as the test certifiers, but it would need to specifically say co-sponsored by them to count for those states. Can you work on that for the future?

I'm not sure what the proper verbiage is -- they aren't 'sponsoring' the event, but we sure as heck are paying them to grade the tests -- does that count?

 

[AdminWolf]

Just checking, will you accept registrations from international optometrists? Even for ~$130 AUD it would be good to tune in.

Yes, it should work -- give it a shot and if your registration fails, send me a PM, we'll work through it...

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[Lynbeth Neal Lorey]

I'm not sure what the proper verbiage is -- they aren't 'sponsoring' the event, but we sure as heck are paying them to grade the tests -- does that count?

My understanding is that their name has to be on the certificate. From the KY board website:

"To be acceptable for license renewal, all continuing education must be sponsored by a state, regional (multi-state) or national optometric association*, an accredited college of optometry or an accredited college of medicine.
*National optometric association would be the American Optometric Association, American Academy of Optometry, College of Vision Development and National Optometric Association.
You must ensure that all COPE courses, and OEP courses are sponsored by a state, regional or national optometric association, an accredited school of optometry or an accredited college of medicine."

 

[AdminWolf]

My understanding is that their name has to be on the certificate. From the KY board website:

"To be acceptable for license renewal, all continuing education must be sponsored by a state, regional (multi-state) or national optometric association*, an accredited college of optometry or an accredited college of medicine.
*National optometric association would be the American Optometric Association, American Academy of Optometry, College of Vision Development and National Optometric Association.
You must ensure that all COPE courses, and OEP courses are sponsored by a state, regional or national optometric association, an accredited school of optometry or an accredited college of medicine."

I don't understand this -- what if you went to Vision Expo, or took a course in a Jobson journal.... is this not the same thing as what we're doing? Have you been denied credit at those venues?

 

[Lynbeth Neal Lorey]

I don't understand this -- what if you went to Vision Expo, or took a course in a Jobson journal.... is this not the same thing as what we're doing? Have you been denied credit at those venues?

Yes! Both of them.